«Կիզակետ» – Երկիր Մեդիա – 12.09.2008
«Կիզակետ» հաղորդման հյուրերը քննարկում են հայ-թուրքական հակամարտությունը
Discussion on armenian-turkish conflict
31 Responses to “«Կիզակետ» – Երկիր Մեդիա – 12.09.2008”
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Կայքի մոդերատորներն իրավունք ունեն հեռացնելու այն գրառումները, որոնք պարունակում են անձնական վիրավորանքներ, բռնության կոչեր, թեմայից դուրս գրառումներ, գովազդային նյութեր։ Նաև չի խրախուսվում շատախոսությունը (flood):
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«Արարատ» կենտրոնն
Ո՛չ օտարալեզու դպրոցներին
Yevs mek angam tuyl tvecink vor Turkere mez “mat” anen – ain el futbolov… Mite Akhtamari “batsume” mer karavarutyan hamar das chexav, mite nranc der eli tsuxakner en harkavor vor haskanank…menk patjar chunenk u voch el karik turkeri het harabervelu – el chem asum barekamanalu…
Mer karavarutyune hapjep, anhetet, voch herates u tetevamit voroshumner kayacrec voronk yerkarazhamket u dzhbaxt hetevankneri karox en hangecnel mer petakanutyunn u yerkri anvtanguyune.
Karavarutyune sxalnerov e sksel ir artakin kaxakanutyune. Divanagitutyune mez hamar amenakarevor dashtn e – ain petk e lini masnagetneri u xorin kax-haskacoxutyun, ashxarhakax. krtutyun unecox mtavorakkaneri gorce, voch te mek-yerku hogu dzerkum voronk chen barehajum xorhrdakcutyan nstel irencic xelacineri het.
Gul 2 amis sharunak knnarkec, gcec-brnec ais arajarke nor voroshum kayacrec -ain el amenanpastavor irenc hamar. Inchkan petk e mer xekavarnere arajnordven zgacmunknerov u xabven…..
Mez petk chen bac sahmanner Turkiai het – shaaat goh enk mer nerkin xndirnere mez bavakan en….Astvac mi arasce.
Let us review the history;
-In 861 Ashot Bagratuni had cooperated with the caliph, al-Mu’tamed sending him the royal crown of Armenia and offering an army force to attack Byzantine.
-The same was proposed to Seljuks, 1064.
Furthermore, Armenians were fighting with Turks against Crusaders.
-1375 with the help of Turks, Armenians killed Cilician king Guy. End of Armenian Cilician Kingdom
-1804 Armenians fought with Persians against Russia (Prince Tsitsianov)
-1828-9 Western Armenia’s Patriarch refused to cooperate with Alexander II, and ought to be loyal to Sultan.
-1877 Armenian Patriarch Nerses Varjapetian issued a pastoral letter calling for loyalty to Ottoman State against Russians. Vicrory of Russians.
-San Stefano treaty ignored Armenian interests.
– 1905 Armenians were working in Turkish parliament, meanwhile atrocities started in Western Armenia and Azerbedjan. Armenians were annihilated.
– 1917 Bolsheviks came to the power in Russia. Armenian resistance army under Dashnaktutiun refused to cooperate with Russians. They fought against Russia.
– Bolsheviks left Western Armenian territories to Turkey.
– 1920 only 1/5 of Armenia was saved by Bolshevik Armenians and Russians.
Anna
You mean that now Armenia is trying to be against Russia with Turkey?
Russians.
I have not finished the review.
-1945 in Potsdam Molotov demanded Kars and Ardahan.Churchill and Truman opposed. Not only.They issued ‘Truman Doctrine’ to block USSR.
-From 1960s already Armenia was in a climax of economic and cultural development.
Armenian National Identity fully was established.
-1988s fake “Perestroika’ Western operation of sabotaging USSR started.
In Armenia the Committee of ‘Garabakh’ with leadership of Levon Ter-Petrosian started a‘National Movement’ to restore the historical territory of Armenia and economic ‘independence’ from Russia.
Soon it turn out that all was a hoax. In fact, it was a global rampage to steal and loot national wealth, to use “Garabakh’ war to achieve the goal; complete annihilation of Armenian National Identity, implanting Western secular liberalism, perversion, twisting moral values, and national ideal. ‘Ground Zero’ was all remained from strong and cultured Soviet Armenia.
The result was; 50% depopulation of Armenia, 100% economic ruin. Successfully had been established the clandestine society with a basis of former registered criminals. In 8 years period 60,000 organized murder and other crimes.
-1998 Robert Kocharian came to succeed. From complete ruins he could keep economic stable nation though extremely poor and weak. The clear foreign policy could not be formed, for Russian Federation still was recovering but was not in hegemony.
-2008. The political picture of the world is DIFFERENT.
Russia came back even more strong than it was in USSR. They quickly could get rid of all international debts, establishing powerful national economy, creating an image of a citizen, who has an ideal, a strength, a determination to put aside own interest for the sake of the nation and its future.
Meanwhile in Armenia Serj Sargsian, emerging himself from clandestine society as God- Father of former criminals, did not show any clear foreign policy.
His foreign policy can be so far described as DUEL MANIPULATION, pleasing NATO (the nucleolus of conflict between Russia and USA/EU) for the sake of couple million dollars as ‘charity,’ pleasing Russia as a moral tribute and obligation to a real power which can make a difference in Armenia’s future.
The President’s recent movement to make ‘brotherhood’ with Turks is deplorable attempt of begging mercy and another ‘charity’ from unrepentant butcher of Armenians.
Now they ‘consider’ the proposal of ‘marriage,’ which will end up with complete annihilation of Armenian Identity.
‘Open borders’ with hell, will result a collapse of whole nation into a hole of oblivion and moral perversion, as ‘No border,’ no protection from it….
I , as former Armenian citizen and a citizen of USA, as native Armenian,
myself DO NOT RECOGNIZE A COUNTRY AS “TURKEY.”
Turkey is a fiction.
It is (Turkey) a ‘political zone’ for USA/Israel, an artificially made and created police State, which disguised under mask of ‘democracy’ promotes a neo-fascism (by camping nuclear units of NATO ) , an immoral ethnic union which twists the history, oppresses the minorities, having a foundation for own fake values the blood and bones of millions of victims. and they call it a ‘secular’ state? ….seeking Russia to be a ‘strategic partner?’…meaaning becoming a vasal state for USA…what a cynic endeavor!
Turkey is built on a graveyard, and it should be NULLIFIED!
…………………………….
Aid inch tesak hai ek, vor URANUM ek zer nakhnineri surb ariune?
Voch mi hai chi karog chanachel Turkian ibrev petutiun.
Dear Anna Anahit,
With all due respect –
If you lived in Armenia, you’d have known that Turkey is not a fiction to be dismissed and wished away so easily and safely, from over there – the States. Turkey is a reality (as are the many serious challenges facing Armenia) to be dealt with, and not cried “foul” or “fiction”.
Cheers
Dear Ditort,
If we have guts and principle Turkey is a fiction, because the Truth and God blessings are with you .
Naked, starving and tired Armenian heroes with almost bare hands could conquer Azeri/Turk/USA forces in 1 to 5 ratio in 1990s deliberating Karabakh and regaining not only the part of our motherland, but the spirit of a Victor (as Napoleon said ‘It is a spirit which conquers, not the army’).
Same way Hazbullah for decades humiliates the ‘super-power’ of the world, USA/NATO , and naked and starving Palestinians consider Israel as a FICTION, be in blockade, in starvation, or death…half million heroic Palestinians keep Israel’s image as ‘a fiction’ because through their sufferings the evil is disclosed…
When Pushkin said ;’ Ti trus, Ti rab, ti Armianin’ he meant your type….no offence…
God bless you…
We should not always be so negative. Armenia needs help to prosper; it is survive as it is as long as the Diaspora sends cash and Russians invest. If Turkey’s self interest changes, then a deal may be struck. Let’s give time a chance.
Best,
What our president considers a step forward is a humilation of Armenian rights , history and belifes
I agree in priniciple with all Armen’s arguments. Especially, the argument on opening the border without reservation should be given serious consideration by any Armenian government. Having said this, I find that the policy of “football diplomacy”, started by president Serjh Sarkisian, was a timely act of good statesmanship. We may disagree with his position concerning the proposal to form an Armenian-Turkish historical commission or the decision to take the Ararat symbol out of the emblem of Armenian Football Federation. But, it is a fact that the visit of the Turkish president to Armenia has considerably reduced the tension in the region and has brought new weight and prestige to Armenia. Besides, Azerbaijan would now be much less inclined to start a war with Armenia at a time when Turkey is trying to normalize its relations with that country.
It is, of course, very important, and in fact absolutely necessary, to make the point clear to everyone that the Armenian Genocide will never be subject to bargaining.
This, however, should not prevent the two coutries to contemplate ways to have balanced relations, especially in the light of the recent Russo-Georgian conflict.
The new circumstances confront Armenia with new challenges. Armenia should not be afraid of them, but move forward with great flexbility and resolve to ensure its security and future prosperity.
What is really sad is that Armenian intellectuals where saying the same things 125 years ago to a deaf population never prepared for the future. Today, we have an Armenian government that has convinced itself it needs to establish relations with Turkey without a single piece of political analysis. I have not seen a single Armenian government position paper on anything even remotely associated with Turkish relatiions. The result of playing a game of chess with NO strategy against an experienced opponent is failure.
-David Davidian
As usual Armen is very wise with his analyses, thank God for having people like him around.
Some of us Armenians either never knew our history with Turks, or they are just ignorant, how time and time Turks betrayed us by not keeping their promises, even after signing agreements. Turks cannot be trusted; a Turk can shake your hand in one hand, and backstab you with the other at the same time.
I Feel Dr.Ayvazian’s Pain.
(Do not Open our Wounds…)
……………………………………….
Being ‘optimistic’ is the term Armenian some officials use this days.
You can choose between ‘optimistic’ or ‘pessimistic,’ I myself chose to be ‘real.’
I have seen youtube lectures of Dr. Ayvazyan, and I could feel his pain and frustration. So feel mullions of my Armenian brothers and sisters after the infamous ‘dialog’.
After President Serj Saegsian’s foolish ( I repeat ‘foolish’) move to ‘reconcile’ with Turks, I myself felt humiliated and crushed to the bitter tears.
No one gave you that right!
Armenian National Pain is Universal-
It belongs to all mankind.
Don’t dare to bring it to nothing.
It has to be healed . But not in a succor game of ‘one goal’ – as Dr.Armen Ayvazyan mentioned truely.
Stop this clowning-around.
Turks know very well what they had done, and out of basic decency they NEVER will open the borders or associate with Armenians.
President Sargsian, find another way to settle our differences with Turks, e.g. by calling an other Nuremberg .
Հարգելի հայրենակիցներ ,խնդրում եմ ՝ գրե՛ք հայերեն,այլապես ստացվում է այնպես,թե այն հայերը ,որոնք անգլերենին չեն տիրապետում այս քննարկման մեջ ավելորդ են :Չե՞ք կարծում ,որ հայագիր կայքում օտար լեզվով գրելը առհամարանք է նաև մեր մայրենի լեզվի հանդեպ ,չէ՞ որ ներկայացված հաղորդումը հայերեն լեզվով է ,իսկ դուք, չգիտես ինչու , լսելով ,հասկանալով հայերենը, գերադասել եք գրել օտար լեզվով :
Հարգանքներով ՝Հեն :
David Davidian (above) proposed the metaphor of a chess game with an experienced opponent, and I could not agree more.
Let us consider the overriding objectives of the two sides in creating relations. (I use the word CREATING deliberately because, as Dr Ayvazyan pointed out, there were no relations to speak of up to this point, and so talk of IMPROVING relations is illogical at best.)
The Armenian government’s overriding objective in creating new relations would seem to be improved economic conditions: access to markets, transit routes, diversity, etc. In order to achieve this aim, the government, in an attempt to please Turkey, has taken a number of extraordinary steps. The discarding of a national symbol, Mount Ararat, from the team shirts is just one obvious example. The conspicuous change in official language and attitude towards Turkey, highlighted by Dr Ayvazyan, is another. This eagerness to please not only embarrasses us, but also telegraphs the government’s position: it is effectively begging Turkey to be our friend.
The Turkish government, meanwhile, has taken no such steps. No gestures, but instead demands. No change in language or attitude. Nothing to prove, or even indicate, that the age old Turkish mentality towards Armenia – which led to countless atrocities in the past – has changed. This strongly suggests that the Turkish objective in respect of Armenia has not shifted from that which has prevailed over the centuries: annihilation. Therefore, in opening the border, Turkey can only consider that this will do Armenia more harm than good.
In the short term, there is no doubt that Armenia may benefit from economic relations with Turkey, and vice versa in respect of Turkey’s eastern wastelands (western Armenia). However, in the event that those benefits become a reality, it is clear from their respective economic positions that the Armenian state would immediately become more dependant on them than the Turkish state. As such, the potential loss of any mutual economic benefit would cause more disruption in Armenia than Turkey. Depending on how much benefit is gained economically from relations – which would determine the level of reliance – a sudden souring of relations with Turkey could even destabilize the country. Such reliance on good relations with Turkey would present Turkey with huge leverage in Armenian affairs, both domestic and foreign.
While ‘economic’ and ‘political’ relations between Armenia and Turkey might be portrayed as separate matters (as by Gul in Baku), it is inevitable that, if Armenia becomes reliant on the former, Turkey will dominate the latter. So, strangely enough, it is in Turkey’s long term interests for Armenia to grow increasingly prosperous through relations with Turkey, with that prosperity remaining tied to continued good relations: i.e. the open border. If Armenia crosses the ‘economic rubicon’ (i.e. beyond the point of no return in terms of economic reliance) Turkey will be in a position to dictate the most unreasonable terms to Armenia, safe in the knowledge that Armenia’s economic livelihood depends upon compliance.
That brings me back to the chess metaphor. The Armenian government does seem to have a short term strategy. But in chasing a few pawns it appears to be presenting Turkey with unguarded access to the ultimate prize.
Hargeli Hen, es haskanum em ev hamamit em dzer kartsikin , baits hashvi arek vor hayutian mets mas@ hayastanab@nak ev hayastanatsin chen ev shater@ hayeren chen xosum. Petk che n@rants durs h@ravirel hay sh@rgapatits, batsi ait kan bazmativ hayer voronk tirapetum en bazmativ lezuner miangamits.iharke lav k@liner vor bolor hayer@ hayeren haskanan, ev aister kan shat ban anelu te spiurki kazmakerputiunneri ev te Hayastan petutian kormits. Tsavok erkusnel b@rnel en hakahay karakakan chanaparh ev torel en amen inch baxti k@mahachuikin.
Hargankner@s
This is spot on analysis (both the TV programme and the article) which must be obligatory viewing and reading for every (Armenian) government department, from minister to lower ranking officials, not to mention others.
The absence of a programmatic approach to the Armenian-Turkish “relations”/ conflict on the Armenian side leaves the door open to another catastrophic outcome for our nation that will potentially allow Turkey to finish the job the Ottoman Empire/Abdul Hamid started in 1890s and the Young Turks, and Ataturk, continued from 1909 through to 1915-23.
The policies of the Turkish Republic towards Armenia and Armenians has been consistent, and consistently anti Armenian, especially since the Soviet collapse and independence. If anything this has intensified, consistently, since the liberation war in Artsakh. As such the current euphoria or ecstasy in Armenian official circles about the Gul visit is rather bizarre.
Turkey has not changed its policy towards Armenia in anyway – the leopard still has its spots! It has not recognised or “apologised” for the Genocide; quite the contrary, it continued its active disinformation and psychological warfare in this regard. Nor has it stopped its unilateral support for Azeri aggression against Armenia and Artsakh. In fact Turkey is Azerbaijan’s main and strategic partner in the military, diplomatic and political fields, so much so that it is pursuing actual war against Armenia by proxy with the open intention of destroying Armenia.
To start relations or negotiations with Turkey from this unequal position is not unlike “negotiation” between a hungry wolf and a lamb!
What sort of relations can we expect to develop between us, when the remit of the negotiations both in its historical and current political contexts, i.e. the terms of reference, is set and determined by Turkey’s unacceptable preconditions and Armenian government’s timid and humiliating acceptance of these preconditions? The result doesn’t bear thinking about, even with the fanfared but unrealistic opening of the border by Turkey: The weakening or loss of Armenian statehood and its transformation, practically, into a Turkish vilayet (at best! or complete annihilation as worst) as prescribed by and dreamed at the US State Department for years.
As Armen Ayvazyan points out in the Yerkir Media TV programme, this is an own goal for Armenia! We will see the immediate results in the cancellation and weakening of any Genocide Recognition moves, especially in the US where a democratic victory and a writing on the wall for Turkey on this issue is on the cards. Turkey may also win favours in European circles by this move, strengthening the current Erdoghan-Gul hand against the more extremist nationalist elements but without any real gains for Armenia.
The recent developments in Georgia, although promising for Armenia in many respects (especially in teaching Baku perhaps not to follow Sahakashvili’s idiotic route to oblivion!), showed Armenia’s basic vulnerability in as far as its communications with Russia and Europe are concerned: Georgia is the only transit route for us to the North and the West. The last thing a welcome resurgent Russia will want though is an interfering Turkey in the Caucasus. Therefore it would be more in Armenian interests, for Armenia to continue its dignified policy towards Turkey and to concentrate efforts on strengthening state and democratic structures and its economy free from Turkish domination. Armenia has everything to gain by becoming a stronger strategic partner with Russia which is going to remain the dominant power in these parts for the foreseeable future.
The Armenian population is 3 million in Armenia
All together we have 600.000 workers…
We just need 100.000 well paid guaranted ( i mean more than 1000 dollars per month ) jobs to have a relativley prosperous country in the region.
To do this we just need good programmers, web-disagners, medecins, translators, finance managers… The kind of jobs that are not related with transportation issues.
Also the lands that we control now are sufficient to have all kind agriculture things grown in our country. For the petrol we can have it from Iran. What else we need to make prosper country. We DON’T TURKEY.
It is Turkey that needs us.
It is sad that this simple thing is not yet understood by the political class of Armenia … The armenian political class is living in a fantasy world created by outside manipulators.. where bad is good and good is bad. We just need to begin think ourselves
Here is another interesting story.
This is happening in Los Angeles, California.
I met two guys who were speaking Turkish. I addressed them speaking Armenian. After, they presented themselves as Turks from Turkey- they were white, blond hair, with hazel eyes, I presented myself as Armenian, me- tan, black hair, dark eyes.
This oxymoron was explained by them. “We are a white race, native, living in Turkey from the beginning of the time.”
“And who are Armenians?” I asked.
“They are invaders in past, now they are terrorists…”- was the answer.
I laughed heartily, long…it was such a naïve… let say ‘ignorance’….
I understand that in ‘relationship’ with Turks, Armenians often will deal with this dilemma, and, of course , there will be three kind of reactions from Armenian side;
1. heartily laughter,
2. heartily hatred,
3. ..and some simply will gun them down…
This ‘relationship’ is nothing but a endless loop in which two sides will be caught.
Through altering historical facts, by replacing them with lies and manipulations, psychological distortion of Turk individual has been accomplished.
One might think about these people that they are living in schizophrenic illusion.
And it is an official policy of the government of Turkey.
PS. Let me ask Armenians living around the globe, in democratic countries, outside Armenia;
-do you have good relationships with Turks?
If ‘yes’ on what ground and how?
Dear Anna Anahit,
I am not the least bothered with your verbal tirade up there as my friends and I fighting on the national front in Armenia know I am not even remotely the person in the quote. Suffice it saying this much on it in this forum.
But the passion with which you speak begs the prompting that you have completely missed the point I made there. Have another read. Good luck.
Ditordon 19 Sep 2008 at 9:35 am
Dear Anna Anahit,
I am not the least bothered with your verbal tirade ….
…………………………………………………………..
Here is the message;
We don’t trust you (if you represent the official policy of Serj Sargsian).
To take national logos from uniforms, etc. to please Turks was the beginning of ‘dealing’ with complex problem?
I have another question;
-Why Armenia’s gov. did not recognize Osetia’s and Abgazia’s independence? They did it to Kosovo, Isn’t?
Looks like ‘pleasing’ is the only course this administration has taken, which will end up by slow deduction of our national principles and core ideals…
I wish I am wrong.
(as for my ‘verbal tirade‘ that is not mine, it belongs to Alexandr Pushkin, and it is a universal definition of any ‘pleasing’ policy.
By the way, It is very difficult to talk to a person who hides own identity. That is why I will not answer you any further…)
Oh Dear!
Dear beloved Brothers and Sisters.
Please do not be offended. I would like to pass a few facts (some of them are universal laws).
From my personal experience:
1) If one truly and sincerely drops the ego for true noble and pure reasons The Lord will take care of the rest.
2) Negative and positive thinking has no connection with our true wisdom, they are the analysis of the mind (illusion) based on past (Bad or good) experiences. So it would be wrong to judge the present and future by relying on the past. Emotionally, we tend to be defensive, dismissive, and so on, and invite the negative energy to spoil new situation. If you act purely with God’s will you have nothing to worry about.
So I hope that our president acted with wisdom relying on God’s will. I tried this so many times and it works, even a wrong step (if taken for noble and pure reason, without condition, and on the basis of God’s will); will result in perfect solution and will be beneficial for all parties. Many cases that I experienced on these bases and most of the time people could not stop themselves admitting that this was nothing short of a miracle (The mind could not understand it, it is beyond it’s capacity). I humbly suggest that we should direct all our sincere thoughts, wishes and prayers asking the Lord to do whatever is necessary. You may or may not be aware, but the physical means are not the only way, actually they are very unreliable way to effect any situation, and as you all know that this issue is very complex, I believe that the only power which can normalize this kind of situation is the Grace of God (If it is called). In my humble way I appeal to you to use your original wisdom to make a difference in this case. If we believe in God and Jesus Christ as God’s Son, then investigate His teachings and act sincerely according to those teachings, like love (Unconditionally, sincerely) your neighbour so that you can activate his/her positive side. Show mercy to all beings so that we receive mercy from God. Under these principals many Armenians survived, even during the worst conflicts. My mother and her brothers and her aunt were kept safe by Turkish neighbours whilst my grandfather and grandmother escaped from their village to Istanbul, and later they were placed safely on the train to Istanbul by these neighbours, so they could join with their parents. Many Armenians were kept safe during disturbances by their Turkish neighbours. Turkish people will understand and appreciate our existence once we keep cool and explain the facts of the history without distorting either way and make them understand that we do not hate them. Hatred will attract hatred, negative will attract negative, positive and pure will attract positive. These are the laws of this lower universe. From personal experience again, they have not been able to deny our existence once they saw that we are pure in heart. And after all that if they still try to harm us we say “Father, please forgive them, they do not know what they are doing”.
After all who can be truer than the Son of God? If we truly trust in Christ we must follow His path.
God Bless
-Why Armenia’s gov. did not recognize Osetia’s and Abgazia’s independence? They did it to Kosovo, Isn’t?Anna
Armenia did not recognise Kosovo.
If Armenia recognise Abkhazia or Ossetya so he must recognise Artzakh also
Yes, the quote’s his, the tirade’s yours.
Funny how you don’t hear anything else except (the resonance of ) your own voice…
# Anna Anahit Paitianon 19 Sep 2008 at 1:13 pm
“We don’t trust you (if you represent the official policy of Serj Sargsian).
——————————
– Perhaps you should speak for yourself.
And, I do not represent anybody’s policy (especially his). I stand for the work and ideas this site/org. stands for. That’s what I was saying, you missed the point…
‘I stand for the work and ideas this site/org. stands for.’
???????
That is a surprise for me. For if this site truly has a principle, you would agree with me, for I support Dr.Ayvazyan’s analysis.
And if he , this site/you, are flip-flap, or ‘paid’ speakers-
S O R R Y-
I am in wrong place.
..and I am out of here…
(I was hasty to give a credit to anybody. Nowadays it is very difficult to find honest people in politics who stand up for what is right without flip-flap and self-interest.
What a shame!)
Mr Ayvazyan is indeed a very wise man.
I myself was born in “eastern Turkey” – our west Armenia! we left Turkey for Europe when I was a child.
I completly agree with dr. Ayvazyan and anybody that disagree with his analysis must be treated very catious, beacuse either that person is very naive, stupid or worse!
A total destruction of the Armenian nation is what 99.9% of the turks wants. That 0.01% honest, fine Turks are alos there but they are so few!
I have had plenty of Turkish classmates and “friends” but we have never discussed the Genocide. Once I did and that relationsship was ended. We are so far from each other. I have confimed my parents wizdom over and over agian, never trust a Turk when it comes to this specific matter.
I myself admire the Turks! – They are fine, honest and hardworking people. As we Armenians are.
But they are our enemies till end of time or till they apoligize for their crime and give us back our land. When they ndo that I might consider belive in a change in their agneda for us. Till then DO NOT EXPECT ANYTHING GOOD FROM TURKS!
If we Armenians could get united and if we could have honest, fine leaders we would have nothing to fear from other, not even the Turks!
The enemy is to be found within our own people, as the history have prooven. Unfortunatly this is even the case today!
i’m a reader of this site, perhaps as u r. –> u needn’t leave the place just because u didn’t want to here what i said… [end of communication]
Unfortunately, we read:
Sargsyan: Have You Ever Heard An Armenian Official Demanding Territory From Turkey?
PanARMENIAN.Net
22.09.2008 16:39 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan said it would be better to form diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia prior to the establishment of any commission, Milliyet Daily reported.
“I generally said that I was not against the establishment of commissions between the two countries… First, let our joint border be opened and diplomatic relations constituted, then we can establish commissions, sub-commissions and sub-sub-commissions for any issue,” the daily quoted Sargsyan as saying.
“In fact, if you remember a similar commission to this was formed in the past with the efforts of the United States and this commission concluded genocide had taken place. What happened then? Has something changed? Did anybody accept it? No. Nobody accepted,” he said.
Sargsyan also denied that they were making territorial demands from Turkey.
“I am surprised by the territorial demand claim. I do not know but it is a common opinion. But have you ever heard an Armenian official saying, “We are demanding territory from Turkey.” In no way has such a statement ever been made,” he said.
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First, if SS was misquoted in Milliyet, the Armenian government has had 2 days to make a retraction — it has not.
SS is saying let’s make a deal, starting with secret talks in NY between Turks/Azerbaijanis and “Armenian Officials” who don’t have to answer to the Armenian population or to any political doctrine. I suspect:
1) At least all land outside of NKR will go back to the Azerbaijanis, if not more. Kelbajar might be an issue. But who cares. The remaining land is incorporated into Armenia.
2) Azerbaijan gets a land route to Nakhichecvan, up to and including giving away Meghri. Who cares anyway.
3) Armenians have diplomatic relations with Turkey.
4) The border opens (and a new set of mafia fat cats are created). The border opening automatically requires that Armenia recognize the border otherwise it makes no sense opening up something Armenians don’t recognize.
5) Turkey will admit that a renegade government, the Ittihadists,committed genocide on the Armenians (like the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews, not German Holocaust of the Jews), but Mustafa Kemal rescued Turkey from this dictatorship. Turkish history books are modified slightly. Armenians will let Turkey off the genocide-blackmail hook. The Armenians will remove
the sword of Damoclese from above the head of the Turks.
6) Armenia will explicitly agree they have no land or reparation claims against Turkey.
7) Turkey might even allow Armenians to purchase whatever land they want in eastern Turkey — but must also become Turkish citizens in the process, men must serve in the Turkish army, etc.
8) This might help Turkey get into the EU. This is one item the Armenians hope for. Of course Armenians assume this can benefit them. This only works if the Turks let them benefit.
Direct result:
-> Some Armenians become filthy rich
-> Some Turks become filthy
-> The average Armenian will eventually be worse off because Armenia losses sovereignty. More Armenians leave Armenia.
-> The Gharabagh issue appears to be “resolved” until Azerbaijan refugees are asked to return to Gharabagh and Armenia.
-> Armenia is no longer on the north-south corridor, losing its border with Iran. Armenia is rewarded with western grants.
-> Armenia becomes a Turkish economic backwater — despite Armenians thinking they will eventually outsmart Turks. Turkey will have a huge influence on internal Armenian politics.
-> Armenia thus allows itself to become a battleground between Turkish and Russian interests. One would have thought we would have learned something from the past
-> As Turkey’s extreme NE region benefits at the expense of the Armenians, making it more and more difficult to claims such lands in reparation.
-> Armenia will lose its ability to demand anything in future. It might want to make demands but they will be futile.
Indirect result:
* Diaspora dissolution accelerates, but who cares
* Armenian lobbies quickly die out, but who cares
Personal result:
– Why bother sending children to Armenian schools
– Why bother speaking Armenian
– I wonder if I want to step foot in the “Turkish Sancak of Ermenistan” an Armenian creation.
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David Davidian
Genocide Archive Project http://www.regionalkinetics.com
92 Brookside Ave
Belmont, MA 02478 USA
Does anybody care that our past and future is being reshaped? What will happen next, shut down Tsitsernakaberd?
Vay Mezi!
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Tigran Khzmalian’s “Sardarapat” Documentary Taken Off List Of Films Shown In Moscow Cinema
Noyan Tapan
http://www.nt.am/news.php?shownews=117643
Sep 23, 2008
YEREVAN, SEPTEMBER 23, NOYAN TAPAN. The documentary “Sardarapat” of film director Tigran Khzmalian has been taken off the list of films shown in the Moscow Cinema. The film was made by an order of the RA ministry of culture.
It was ready in early May but has not been demonstrated so far. By a preliminary agreement, the documentary was to be shown in the Moscow Cinema on September 27, but four days before its screeining the film director was informed that his documentary had been taken off the list of that cinema’s films.
T. Khzmalian said during a talk with NT correspondent that he does not understand what is going on in Armenia. “I don’t even have the right to show my work to the public. I can’t imagine in what times we live.”
A 68-minute version of the film was shown at the Narekatsi Center on September 16, but the “May” version is a 38-minute one and has another accentuation. As T. Khzmalian had said at the Narekatsi Center, during the film’s shooting he as the scriptwriter discovered some interesting
facts and video materials unknown to many. “I was sent sensational facts and video materials from various countries, and all of them occurred and were filmed in 1916-1920. I became acquainted with the documents which were not published due to the political situation in this region. I made an attempt to sum up what happened 90 years ago – now, at the beginning of the 21st century. All that happened at that time was because of feebleness of dull political figures,
parties and improvident leaders,” T. Khzmalian underlined.
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David Davidian
Genocide Archive Project http://www.regionalkinetics.com
92 Brookside Ave
Belmont, MA 02478 USA
HERIQ E!!!!! G R E Q H A Y E R E N
http://www.rusk.ru/st.php?idar=104297